Turbo Kit (Newbies)

ECUs, intakes, turbos, fluids, transmissions, exhausts etc.
Hosrom
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Post by Hosrom » 17 Mar 2007, 1:41 pm

Let us get a few things clear:

Any car with a turbocharger requires an intercooler, no questions asked. Once you compress air, no matter how efficient it is, air heats up. Internal combustion engines don't like hot air, and the hotter the air gets, the more you are exposed to detonation.

Turbochargers convert waste into free power, since they are driven by exhaust. Going for the right turbocharger or the wrong turbocharger will produce lag and possibly cause a surge in the compressor. Hence why factory turbocharged cars have very little, if not no lag at all.

A supercharger works off the engine crankshaft with a belt, just like an ac compressor. So, even on idle, the supercharger is using the crank to depend on. Hence, superchargers use engine power to make power. A supercharger wouild typically use anything from 17-50bhp depending on the car, engine, supercharger, pully etc.

The main difference, is that the turbocharger could hold the boost proessure as the rpms go higher (some factory cars don't due to production limitations and performance), but this can be overcome with aftermarket turbochargers. Superchargers will NOT hold boost to redline, they run out of efficiency in the 4,700-redline range.

The turbocharger requires exhaust tubing for the turbine inlet (connected to the headers) and an outlet (downpipe) taking exhaust back into the system, as well as a wastegate to control the spool and boost of a turbocharger by bleeding off exhaust (open wastegate or closed wastegate).

Since turbochargers run very high EGT's (exhaust tempreatures) the exhaust system is make from SS (in various grades such as 302, 304, 316 and 321 grade) and have been welded with 217 or higher rods, thus eliminating exhaust leaks, cracks and so on.

If you have a NA and wish to turbocharge it, make SURE that whoever is selling the turbo kit includes a set of chips, software module or even a computer (ECU) with the correct maps. If they don't, then walk away since you WILL be destructing the engine by running lean (too much air, not enough fuel). Also make sure that there is either new upgraded fuel injectors, or that the software is matched to the injectors you have.

NA cars running turbo will never run more than 12-14psi, under 1.0bar, of boost pressure, since the compression ratio is already high in NA. Don't expect more that 50-100whp (at the wheels) with a turbo kit, if you REALLY want to make some power, then you would need to lower the compression ratio with pistons.

Even there you are not done, since more power comes with more control. You will require bigger brake disks, better pads, bigger calipers, stronger suspension, new clutch to hold the power, otherwise you are playing with fire.

Hope that is clear ;)

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Post by mikeh » 18 Mar 2007, 9:43 am

Hosrom wrote:A supercharger wouild typically use anything from 17-50bhp depending on the car, engine, supercharger, pully etc.
Or 150 :D

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Post by Hosrom » 18 Mar 2007, 1:28 pm

mikeh wrote:
Hosrom wrote:A supercharger wouild typically use anything from 17-50bhp depending on the car, engine, supercharger, pully etc.
Or 150 :D
That is such a high number; if that were true, then the supercharger would ake 150bhp from the crank, then add another 150-200. Thus you gain very little.....then what's the point of the supercharger, pully, belts, chips/software upgrade then?

:wink:

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Post by big_boss » 18 Mar 2007, 7:45 pm

Thanks for the Info! but what about a subaru bl9. my cars engine is already turbo configured from the factory but i dont know what siz turbo should i put ? to6 to8 ???

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Post by Hosrom » 18 Mar 2007, 9:07 pm

big_boss wrote: Thanks for the Info! but what about a subaru bl9. my cars engine is already turbo configured from the factory but i dont know what siz turbo should i put ? to6 to8 ???
Remember, the more air to cram into the engine, the more fuel it needs.

Trust me on this one, start with basics, like chips and software from a tried and proven vendor.

From there, get used to the car. I have seen simple chips in the $300 range push 100+bhp on factory cars, they are very nice since all the ignition and fuel maps are already preloaded, you just need a boost controller and set the boost to the chips map (they are mentioned).

Once you upgrade hardware, things become very tricky unless you have a stand alone, wideband and serious dyno time. Start slow.........

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Post by Accord98 » 18 Mar 2007, 10:46 pm

^^ good advice.... alot of people on this forum still need to learn that....

kinda like - look before u leap :wink:

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Post by Hosrom » 18 Mar 2007, 11:38 pm

Accord98 wrote:^^ good advice.... alot of people on this forum still need to learn that....

kinda like - look before u leap :wink:
I will say this..........

If you plan on driving you're car on the street daily, then you should NOT want this:

"I want my car to have 800+bhp"

Having such power comes with a lot of sacrifices, for once, the turbocharger would be huge, both compressor and turbine. Full boost may not hit till 4,000+rpms, and when you have a 6,500rpm limit, there is no fun. In traffic, you will have almost a useless engine, since low end grunt (torque) is needed.

Unless you spent some serious money (US$20,000-US$60,000), going and placing some titanium rods, forged alloy pistons, serious weight and knife edging crank, dry sump conversion, oil coolers, extensive cylinder head p&p, bigger intake and exhaust valves, dual ball bearing and clipped turbine turbos.........as you can see.......money talks, you MAY get away with a quick responsive engine (doubt it, but nothing is impossible).

Unless you can tell me a factory car that revs 10,000rpms.........;)

PS: Those supra, skyline and evo's pushing those number (and more) use NOS for boost build (spool) as well as CO2 or H2O injection to cool the charged air...........

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Post by mikeh » 19 Mar 2007, 12:24 am

Hosrom wrote:
That is such a high number; if that were true, then the supercharger would ake 150bhp from the crank, then add another 150-200. Thus you gain very little.....then what's the point of the supercharger, pully, belts, chips/software upgrade then?

:wink:
Actually, it's the MP90 Eaton roots blower on a GK engine, stock it generates 150-ish hp at the wheels, supercharged with this one, close to 300. Sometimes even 310, depending on the tune. And, as you are aware, roots blowers let you keep the low end grunt. :D

Nice knowledge on cars there mate, what do you do in your mortal life?

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Post by Hosrom » 19 Mar 2007, 11:44 am

mikeh wrote:
Hosrom wrote:
That is such a high number; if that were true, then the supercharger would ake 150bhp from the crank, then add another 150-200. Thus you gain very little.....then what's the point of the supercharger, pully, belts, chips/software upgrade then?

:wink:
Actually, it's the MP90 Eaton roots blower on a GK engine, stock it generates 150-ish hp at the wheels, supercharged with this one, close to 300. Sometimes even 310, depending on the tune. And, as you are aware, roots blowers let you keep the low end grunt. :D

Nice knowledge on cars there mate, what do you do in your mortal life?
Sorry, but i was never into superchargers, hence my information was probably not accurate about them. Regardless, im such a turbo guy, just love them.

I am actually an interior designer, but since i have tinkered with my own car for 7+ years, one get's to learn and understand. Hell, i still learn now, you can never stop learning when working on cars yourself.

I have some serious plans for my car, and one should ALWAYS do the homework. I just shake my head, look down and walk away whenever i come across a tuner here, no matter how good they think their are. That's because they either don't have the right equipment (wideband and dyno) or they have the right equippment but don't know how to use them.

For everyone's info, just because you have a wideband sensor, doesn't mean you are doing things correctlt. Example, the location of the sensor and it's angle are extremly crucial, same applies for the EGT gauge.

By the way, there is another drawback when it comes to making serious power besides turbocharger, and that is clutches. Goodness, i can go one forever on this, since going for more power, mean requireing a more agressive clutch and pressure plate. Get the combo incorrect and you will have a pedal that feels like a brick, or the clutch could slip, over heat and burn out........

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Post by mikeh » 19 Mar 2007, 2:38 pm

Hosrom wrote:I am actually an interior designer, but since i have tinkered with my own car for 7+ years, one get's to learn and understand. Hell, i still learn now, you can never stop learning when working on cars yourself.
I completely agree.

Turbo's are better somehow, since they don't "rob" power from your engine.. as they use power that is there already (the exhaust gases). The problem with turbo's is that many people here go for a HUUGE turbo, claime to have a gazzilion horsepower, but it's -as you said before- hardly drivable.

Having 800 hp is great, but it wond be there untill you reach 6000 RPMs. And that ain't streetable.

Hosrom, where are you from? (heh, it even rhymed)

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Post by Hosrom » 19 Mar 2007, 3:28 pm

mikeh wrote:
Hosrom wrote:I am actually an interior designer, but since i have tinkered with my own car for 7+ years, one get's to learn and understand. Hell, i still learn now, you can never stop learning when working on cars yourself.
I completely agree.

Turbo's are better somehow, since they don't "rob" power from your engine.. as they use power that is there already (the exhaust gases). The problem with turbo's is that many people here go for a HUUGE turbo, claime to have a gazzilion horsepower, but it's -as you said before- hardly drivable.

Having 800 hp is great, but it wond be there untill you reach 6000 RPMs. And that ain't streetable.

Hosrom, where are you from? (heh, it even rhymed)
As you said, it's choosing the right turbocharger that makes or breaks the overall drive of the car. You can get around the issue of having to use a large turbocharger, but just to make things clear to everyone, here are the general rules of thumb for turbocharger:

small compressor + small turbine = Great spool (no lag), loss of boost in upper rpms, limited power.

small compressor + small turbine = Slower sool, no loss of boost in upper rpms, limited power (still a small compressor).

Large compressor + small turbine = Good spool, loss of boost in upper rpms, more power but limited due to turbine (small turbines generate backpressure).

Large compressor + large turbine = slow spool, no loss of boost in upper rpms and more power.

Now, there are ball bearing and dual ball bearing turbochargers, there is also an old trick by clipping (shaving) the turbine blades, making them sharper hence respond to flow better. I have seen clipped T04E 60 trim turbo's with T3 0.63 a/r turbines spool 1 bar in less 3,200rpms on a 2.5L 4 cylinder engine, with very nice power delivery (540+whp). Now, making more power would need a 0.82 a/r turbine, seriously clipped (12 degrees) and a dual ball bearing, that resulted in 562whp and 1 bar was achieved at 3,400rpms (it's a huge turbine). Now, adding a larger compressor is a delicate balance, since adding a larger one would probably reduce spool by 200+rpms, but generate more power. But then, you can have the same size compressor, yet more efficient (flow) and generate more power without sacrificing lag.

But then, some p&p of the cylinder head, agressive cam (with higher exhaust profile) would also reduce lag..........so you see, there are so many things one can get around it, it comes down to experience in turbo's (knowing which one works), tuning and a dyno or a flow jet.

PS: To answer you're question, im from Egypt, but i was born in Dubai, and lived here all my life (26 years). My step-father is German IIRC ;)


For the record: Those numbers were put down on as eriously modified Porsche 944 Turbo 1987, running a mixture of 75% 98 Octane and 25% Xyline mix (total of approximately 105-109Octane fuel grade). The car was also running 25psi boost and had some seriously advanced ignition timing (the cylinder head was lifting as well), i believe there was a total advancd timing of 58-64 degrees (normal factory cars run 22-35 advanced timing on 98ron fuel IIRC).

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Post by mikeh » 20 Mar 2007, 12:24 pm

Hope you guys kept everything cool, you don't want misfires on 25 pounds. :D

Your 944.. heavily modded I assume?

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Post by Hosrom » 21 Mar 2007, 3:43 pm

mikeh wrote:Hope you guys kept everything cool, you don't want misfires on 25 pounds. :D

Your 944.. heavily modded I assume?
No, not even close. Thing is, you much get used to some extra power, learn to control it.

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Post by mikeh » 21 Mar 2007, 4:21 pm

Any pics of her?

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Post by Hosrom » 23 Mar 2007, 2:22 pm

mikeh wrote:Any pics of her?
let's see what i can do..........be patient ;)



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